Disorganized Attachment And Dissociation

if it’s ok to ask what exactly counts as experiencing tbmc? does it include manipulation and gaslighting.. childhood torture? what exactly is mind control how does someone know if they have been through that? is childhood torture in general considered ramcoa as well or must it meet specified requirements?

Okay so we ended up getting hit by a shit ton of stuff in our life so we've been a bit less active here- sorry it took a while to answer.

First we have another post we have made discussing some of the stuff surrounding TBMC. You can find that post here.

Second, this is a religious sight that is trying to make Christianity more healthy and safe and trauma informed, not fully our cup of tea but it has an interesting page on TBMC here. (Mention it's religious and which religion because it can be triggering)

Now onto us actually answering things ourself.

what exactly counts as experiencing tbmc? does it include manipulation and gaslighting.. childhood torture?

TBMC as we have previously mentioned is known as Trauma Based or Torture Based Mind Control. Childhood torture very often is done for the purpose of mind control, in which case it would fall under TBMC. Most childhood torture is RAMCOA but not all of it falls under TBMC as TBMC is more known as the result rather than the traumatic incidents that it takes to occur the way RAMCOA generally defines the experiences.

TBMC is also not something only children can experience. The experiences of children born into it or raised with it at a young age will be different than an adult introduced to it later in life, but it is still TBMC all the same. There is no cut off age for when torture magically can stop affecting the wiring of your brain. Humans are malleable, and bad people will always know that. Governments will know that too. TBMC is rampant among governmental agencies.

All TBMC is manipulation- but not all manipulation is TBMC. TBMC is done with the goal of rewiring your brain and making you behave in very specific ways. It's meant to make you do things you would not otherwise or believe in things you would not otherwise. It is intrinsically linked to programming. Programming can be done to individual alters (induced by programmers targeting a specific self-state or state of mind or associating certain traumas with specific orders/tasks/etc to make an alter be attached to a specific behavior or task or idea), and system-wide or on the whole of the person (think strong unwavering loyalty common in many cults that refuse all evidence of being in a cult).

Gaslighting might get used within TBMC but it is not inherited to TBMC and by itself would not produce the same effects as TBMC.

what exactly is mind control how does someone know if they have been through that?

Oh man this is where it gets very tricky. There is no exact answer to what mind control is as it happens in a variety of different ways. Mind control is basically manipulation of someone's thoughts and behavior that then become intrinsic to the person and last far after they were programmed. It's more than just being made to believe strange things- it's internalizing them to such a degree that they impact your day to day life and view of the world as a whole.

Us being a decade away from the cult and having no reason to go back but having an urge even stronger than our OCD compulsions at times to go back is one type of programming we experience. We also have what presents as agoraphobia- but do not have fear of open spaces and can get groceries fine and go to work and school without issue. This is actually our self-isolation program that tells us when there is no obligation we should never interact with anyone else- there is no reason to. Unless the reason is to proselytize- and since we do not have the faith we once did, that is no longer an option. It's a deeply internalized behavior and belief that sticks even when we logically know it's bad. We are aware it is stupid and unreasonable but we physically cannot break out of it (where we are in recovery currently that is).

It's hard to tell for sure if you have it or not. One thing we had that should have been incredibly fucking obvious to us but wasn't- was that we excused the abuse one of the people in our life put us through as "he was just trying to train us". Never occurred to us that the fact he was "training" us made it worse. It was basically self-defense but not for actual defense type stuff if you catch my drift.

There can also be signs within your behavior. Sometimes it's hard to differentiate OCD and programs as well because some programs can be pushed back on the same way you can with OCD compulsions. However in our case most of our programs are just innate and incredibly difficult to stop ourselves from doing if we can at all. Realizing you have behavior that you struggle to physically stop and have no wish to engage in and do while consciously being aware you do not want to do them and this happens often- was one of the big signs to us. (And again it's a very complex issue because of different mental health concerns that could be tricky.)

is childhood torture in general considered ramcoa as well or must it meet specified requirements?

We personally consider it to fall under that because more extreme forms of abuse tend to end up with the same issues but there is debate. The most common things people know of that fall under RAMCOA is trafficking and cults.

However if you are trying to determine if something you have already known to experience counts as this term there's a few things you can do.

Does it fall under RA/Ritual abuse? It can hard to tell but I suggest just looking up basic information on what RA is conceptually (if you are in a good mental state and/or have a professional to fall back on and if possible a safety net of friends or family). RA is a very vast concept.

Did you experience TBMC or another form of mind control? If yes then automatically the label applies to you. This also goes for hypnotic mind control and substances used for mind control- as they are also important but less talked about forms of this.

Did you experienced organized abuse? This is a group partaking in abuse towards you. Whether it be mandated or the norm by something like a cult, or a criminal ring, etc. It's a bit hard to get into right now for me.

The only requirements are that you experience RA, MC, or OA. You can experience multiple- RA AND MC for example. Or just one. OA or RA. We struggle mostly with MC as we grew up in a cult that kinda worshipped the leader almost (but nobody would ever admit it even though they quote shit he says online like bible quotes). Which is why we talk about it so much, but it's not necessary to be a RAMCOA survivor.

It's okay to take time to figure out the extent of trauma you might have gone through. It's okay if you fit or don't fit any particular label. All trauma is incredibly important. There just tends to be a lot of subgroups of people with specific experiences because of how it impacts their daily life.

being a system is going through years and years of abuse and torment. being a system is sitting in the shower sobbing because you don’t know who or where you are. being a system is losing year-long friends because they refuse to believe you. being a system is looking the worst parts of you in the face and going “i think we can change”. being a system is holding a child version of yourself and repeating “i love you” over and over again.

being a system is hugging yourself and saying, “hey, we’re gonna be okay.”

Many well known ramcoa accounts say that MC is always done by two or more people. I think it can be done by one or more. Why do so many people believe it’s done by two or more?

TMBC and programming aren’t the same thing either but many see it as such.

TBMC is a type of programming. There are multiple types of programming including TBMC. so TBMC is programming but not all programming is TBMC

TBMC is torture based mind control and absolutely can be done by just one or two people. It doesnt take more than one person to torture a child. In fact *any* type of programming can be done by one person.

I think where people are getting confused is theyre thinking that only trafficking survivors can have TBMC, which isnt true. It has many different forms and there are thousands of different experiences.

Trafficking is Organized Abuse. All trafficking is Organized abuse. But not all TBMC is organized abuse. Parents are *absolutely* capable of brainwashing their children using torture. Its just not going to be as complex as a trafficking survivors.

I know many large ramcoa creators that agree with me and have educated me on this subject as well as the therapists and psychiatrists that treat RAMCOA survivors that have articles that what do you know, agree with me.

If you look at the definition of trauma based mind control and resources on the subject you will see that in the definition itself there is not a quota on the amount of abusers “necessary” to instill programming.

In this article by Ellen Lacter, there are 12 different kinds of Mind Control, in it she uses the term “abuser or cult” which therefore implies that it absolutely can be done by one person, two people, or an organized ring of people.

End Ritual Abuse

Mind Control: Simple to Complex — End Ritual Abuse

Organizations with a wide range of political and criminal agendas have historically relied on coercive interrogation and brainwashing of var

do not know how to word my feelings on your post, but it feels very strange to say that because your DID experiences are misery, that means DID itself is miserable, and to imply that non-DID-having bodies can't experience being a system is weird.

yes, what you went through sounds awful, and yes, DID to you would be miserable, but DID does not mean misery. it means (some level of) disorder. for people who are polyfragmented (especially through things like RAMCOA/TBMC), yes, this CAN mean a LOT of misery, but us systems who do not suffer with that same level of misery aren't less of a system because of that difference.

while you can explain your experiences as more painful in your perspective, playing trauma olympics and denying other people's own experiences is weird. it's heavily invalidating, especially as someone who would probably fall under a disordered traumagenic diagnosis, and who loves their system and who sees it as hope and not misery (as it is the light in the darkness, the company that protected me through terrible things. that is not misery for me)

(also, most endogenic systems are not claiming to have DID, not self diagnosed or professionally diagnosed. it is a different kind of plural systemhood that is not connected to having DID. so to say that being endogenic is taking away "everything that DID is about" is just... strange.)

I am not playing the trauma Olympics by saying that what I went through makes me miserable. For you to suggest acknowledging my existence as a trauma survivor is invalidating is really not good.

Also I should clarify: you can love parts and even most of your system, but you cannot deny the fact that it is born out of misery and so it is not all sunshine and rainbows. It comes with PTSD, or one of its forms.

Also, endogenic is taking away everything DID is about because the only scientifically recognized way to be a system is with either DID (or a variant like HC or C), OSDD-1, or UDD. And these, like all dissociative disorders, are trauma disorders. To me being endogenic has always meant cherry picking a glamorized version of the symptoms of these disorders, as I said in the post.

Human Bill of Rights

GUIDELINES FOR FAIRNESS AND INTIMACY

1. I have the right to be treated with respect.

2. I have the right to say no.

3. I have the right to make mistakes.

4. I have the right to reject unsolicited advice or feedback.

5. I have the right to negotiate for change.

6. I have the right to change my mind or my plans.

7. I have a right to change my circumstances or course of action.

8. I have the right to have my own feelings, beliefs, opinions, preferences, etc.

9. I have the right to protest sarcasm, destructive criticism, or unfair treatment.

10. I have a right to feel angry and to express it non-abusively.

11. I have a right to refuse to take responsibility for anyone else's problems.

12. I have a right to refuse to take responsibility for anyone's bad behavior.

13. I have a right to feel ambivalent and to occasionally be inconsistent.

14. I have a right to play, waste time and not always be productive.

15. I have a right to occasionally be childlike and immature.

16. I have a right to complain about life's unfairness and injustices.

17. I have a right to occasionally be irrational in safe ways.

18. I have a right to seek healthy and mutually supportive relationships.

19. I have a right to ask for a modicum of help and emotional support.

20. I have a right to complain and verbally ventilate in moderation.

21. I have a right to grow, evolve and prosper.

http://www.pete-walker.com/humanBillofRights.htm

What Doesn’t Kill You Can Make You Weaker

Hi. This is a whisper reaching out to those of us who didn't become warriors after trauma & ab*se.

So Content Warning for insinuated ab*se/trauma, & here's something for you.

((It's okay to reblog this but please don't add on to it in post (adding on in the tags is okay).))

~Lyle & Nico

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“What Doesn’t Kill You Can Make You Weaker”

---

“What doesn’t kill you makes you stronger”

“What doesn’t kill you makes a fighter”

Survivor (Destiny’s Child), Fighter (Christina Aguilera), Warrior (Demi Lovato), Stronger (Kelly Clarkson), plenty of songs about someone who says their trauma made them stronger, a warrior, a fighter, a survivor play on our radios, in our stores, in our lives.

And while that’s admirable, it’s not the only option.

What doesn’t kill you can make you weaker.

Or, to be more accurate, what didn’t kill you makes you feel weaker and changes how you act.

Because what doesn’t kill you doesn’t MAKE you a fighter. YOU make you a fighter.

But the thing is, ‘the same water that hardens the egg, softens the potato’ (/paraphrase of an ancient proverb). Just because you’re put under pressure doesn’t guarantee you’ll “get a thick skin”, become a warrior able to handle trauma, whatever.

Some of us melt. Some of us become softer. Some of us weaken.

Some of us become sensitive to the most miniscule insult, the slightest harsh tone, someone setting the groceries down a little too hard, someone talking a little too loud, someone moving just a little too fast.

And that doesn’t make us bad people, or stupid, or “too sensitive”. Some people aren’t meant to be hard warriors. Some of us are lovers, not fighters.

We exist. I exist.

So here’s to those who got softer, those who got more sensitive, those who became hypervigilant, those who made themselves smaller, the fawn and freeze and flight/avoid and normalize responses, those who feel like they should be stronger, those who are too afraid to raise their voice and become a “warrior”, those who can’t stand up to their abusers.

Here’s to those of us who didn’t become warriors, fighters, or stronger. You are valid. I see you, I hear you, I feel with you, I hurt with you, I believe you.

There is nothing wrong with you. You are not existing wrong. Our world celebrates the loud warriors, but you are just as important.

Survival is still rebellion, even if it’s silent rebellion.

People can jump on my ass all they want for this but it’s actually super shitty to treat a RAMCOA survivor like shit because they share too much information. And I don’t mean being angry at them, I mean harassing them, bullying them, and refusing to respect them as a survivor even if you don’t like them as a person.

You need to keep in mind that despite the risks of what they’re doing, they still went through these things. They suffered and still suffer. And above all. They’re a human being. Be fucking considerate of that.

~Fluff time~ (slight hurt/comfort, fluffiness, and this is based off of my headcanon about New York loving coloring books)

Also: Connie is Connecticut’s nickname

=======================================================================

5pm:

The meeting had been rather stressful for New York today. There was a lot of yelling and fighting and cussing and other various loud sounds that were overstimulating him and he felt like just curling up in ball and crying where he sat and covering his ears to block out everything. But then he would have had to deal with the others asking what was wrong with him and he did NOT need their pity.

Once the meeting was over, he left the meeting room as fast as he could without literally sprinting like a D1 track athlete and went to his room. Once he got there, he grabbed one of his many adult coloring books, his 96 pack of crayons (bet it has a sharpener too- those are literally the best-), his phone, and his Bluetooth headphones. York set the stuff on his bed and walked over to his closet and grabbed his cropped AC/DC hoodie the may or may not be a little big on him and literally eliminated his arms/hands. He put on the hoodie and headphones, turned on his music, grabbed his stuff, and started his way to the living room. On his way out of his room, he saw one of his fidget cubes and grabbed it with little to no hesitation before going to the living room.

He walked down the hall and looked around the lounge area of the NE floor to see how many people were there. Pennsylvania and Mass were talking in the kitchen, Jersey and Rhode Island were sitting at the kitchen island exchanging memes, and Maine was sitting on couch paying attention to the TV. Aight, he’ll be alright. York snuck past everybody and went into the corner of the living room where he usually hid when he wanted to. There, he set down his stuff, grabbed a pillow, found a good picture, and got to work.

There was something about coloring that brought some weird form of peace to his soul. He just liked the mindlessness of it and the fact that it gave him two positive things to focus on instead of many negative things, and that was: staying in the lines and listening to the music.

=======================================================================

A few hours later, at around 10pm:

Connecticut was getting ready for bed when he decided to go get a cup of water before sleeping. As he walked to the kitchen, he noticed something laying in the corner of the living room. He walked over and his heart nearly melted at the sight that lay before him.

York was curled up in a ball near fully asleep next to his coloring book on the floor. He had one arm, which was covered completely by his hoodie sleeve, wrapped around his torso and his legs pulled up to torso. His other arm/hand that wasn’t wrapped around himself had a crayon in it, and York’s phone was next to him still playing his music and his hood was covering his head as well as half his face. It was overall an adorable sight, but Connie wasn’t about to let York just sleep on the floor like that. He was also questioning how the he// York was able to sleep in that position and be comfy.

He walked over to his youngest brother and knelt down next to him. He gently shook York’s shoulder and whispered, "York..?" A few times. Slowly but surely Connie heard a slight groan, indicating that York was slightly awake now. He gently took the hood off of the younger’s head and ruffled his hair slightly, chuckling when he leaned into the touch. "C’mon ya little dork. Time for bed. You need it."

"Mm not tired…." York mumbled as though he wasn’t practically asleep right now.

"Mhm yea okay." Connie said sarcastically as he ran his hand York’s hair and gently scratched his scalp, putting the younger in pure bliss. "Yer literally falling asleep right now."

"Mm not…." protested the Empire State. "F(speaks New York) off…."

"Yes you are, don’t bother tryin’ to get out of this." Said the Constitution State. He gently poked York his exposed side, making him flinch and curl up completely. This gave Connie the opportunity to pick up the taller in his arms, carry him to the couch, and lay down with York (who was practically asleep) curled up next to him. He grabbed a comforter that was on the back of the couch and gently draped it over the two of them.

York had now buried his face in his brother’s chest and was sound asleep.

Connie tilted his head slightly and planted a gentle brotherly kiss to the top of his head. "Night Yorkie…."

And he could’ve sworn he heard a near dead silent, "Welterusten (Dutch for: Good Night)." in response to his words.

clones and splitting -nightmare (but pink helped at the end)

mega-list of ideas for coping with distressing voices

these are only offered as possible things to try if ur hearing distressing voices… everyone is different & everyone’s voices are different. you know you better than anyone else knows you. if you need to modify any of these, or reject any of these as actively unhelpful for you, that’s ok. 💜 feel free to add your own.

use this however is most helpful for you - i’m sharing what helps & has helped for me. so in no particular order:

Name your voices. Sometimes when they’re all just nameless forms, it can be hard to understand what’s going on, and they can feel scarily omnipotent. I found naming mine helpful for kind of containing the experience & getting to know my voices. If you ask some voices will name themselves.

Visualise ‘safe spaces’ for your voices. If you ask some voices might create their own safe place. Otherwise, you can imagine somewhere real, like sometimes I ask one of my voices to go to sleep in certain bits of a room. Or you can imagine . If you really can’t be disturbed for a length of time, you can try leaving the radio on for them, visualising them relaxing, and tell them when you’ll be ‘back’.

Draw your voices. (Or create a pinterest board for them.) One of my voices used to say things that were horrendously graphic and distressing, and I used to try to block her out all the time, so she got more aggressive with trying to get a reaction from me. Drawing her, and everything she said, whilst very difficult to do, helped it feel more manageable, and helped me pick out themes in what she was saying.

Are there any kind voices you can draw on as allies? If you have a voice that’s kind to you, you could try asking them for help. To stand up to other voices, to comfort you afterwards, etc.

Planning in advance what you might say to distressing stuff. Does a specific voice say really triggering, threatening things with an authoritative tone? It might help to prepare for the voice, and how you might respond. Often being aggressive to aggressive voices can trigger more aggression from voices (voices will lash out if they’re insulted) - how can you be polite but assertive? An example I’ve heard is “bless you, but I don’t want to do that” for commanding voices. But your response will be unique. 

Set a time to listen to your voices. If voices aren’t listened to, they can get louder and more hurtful and graphic to try to get your attention - it can be a vicious cycle. But, if you engage with some voices without support, it can turn into them playing games with you and playing on your insecurities. It might help to strike a balance - set, say, half an hour a day, let the voices speak, and genuinely listen. After the time is up, you go back to doing what you usually do.

Try asking a trusted person to talk to your voices for you (this is a technique called voice dialoguing). Voice dialoguing was honestly the foundations of my recovery, and mostly conducted by my lovely partner. It’s where you sit in a different seat, and someone else speaks to your voices and you tell the person what the voices say, and you often do this multiple times. You decide what feels safe, and you debrief after. The person has to be non-judgemental about voices, and not frightened of voices. There’s information on voice dialoguing here: https://openmindedonline.com/2018/10/14/talking-with-voices-article-and-video/

Try some peer support. Maybe there’s a hearing voices group in your area? https://www.hearing-voices.org/hearing-voices-groups/find-a-group/ If not, there’s a lot of us on tumblr - hit us up and vent here. You don’t have to carry this alone.

Are you listening with anxious intensity bc they’re saying particularly distressing things? When my voices are calling me worthless or useless, or saying graphic things, or telling me a shameful secret only I know, I can completely drop what I’m doing, and LISTEN with such anxious intensity because I NEED to know I’m bad and evil. Sometimes it helps to notice I’m doing this and “let go” of the anxious intensity. I don’t need to powerlessly obsessively listen just because they’re shit talking me.

Physically soothe yourself to soothe screaming voices. Hearing screaming? Try hugging yourself, or giving yourself a face massage, or telling yourself it’s OK, or whatever it is that soothes you. When I soothe myself, I usually inadvetedly soothe the crying or screaming voice. Sometimes overtly comforting the voice helps too, even if it’s coming from very far away.

If you’ve experienced trauma, voices might be carrying memories you don’t remember or don’t feel strongly about, so they can’t be kind to you - you dissociated whilst they (the voice) stayed. Some voices remember things I don’t. Some memories I have I remember, but I don’t feel traumatised by them - but my voices really do. They have to be aggressive and violent towards me, because a) if I got close to them, I would remember too, and they’re protecting me, and b) they resent me for not remembering it whilst they do. Whilst this doesn’t immediately help how cruel they can be, it helps me have some compassion & acceptance. 

Imagine a protective spell. I used to imagine a pink, sparkling sphere of healing and protection around me, and nothing could get in and hurt me. I was totally safe within this sphere. I was really into D&D, so I statted it too - 1000000000 AC, resistant 10000 to negative energy, etc. On my worst nights this helped.

Have a grounding object. I got a stone from an enjoyable vacation I had, and also an amethyst and a teddy, and I used to curl up into the fetal position and GRIP them. If you’re into this stuff, you could charge the objects with healing energy, anything else that makes the object feel more grounding. (This post is about hearing voices but also if you have visual hallucinations & feel brave enough, throwing something through the hallucination can help.)

Experiment with earplugs, sound, and space. Everyone’s voices are so unique - some get louder in big, echoey buildings, some get louder in small spaces, some shout above background noises, some blend in, some get louder with earplugs, some get quiet. Experiment! Go to different spaces and ask the voices if they can talk. Put different (&no) background sounds on. Use earplugs. See if anything feels more or less comfortable.

Experiment with distractions. When I was strugglling 24/7, the only quiet I would get would be during a good film and I NEEDED that. You can’t use distraction all the time - voices will catch up, and ignored voices tend to try to find ways to not be ignored. But I’ve found it necessary to find some breathing space. Films were that for me. There could be distractions that work best for you.

Hide! It’s OK to hide. It’s so OK to hide. It’s not a negative coping mechanism. Under the desk is my favourite place.

Complete a Maastricht interview. I am continually surprised by how little I know about my voices & how helpful I find it to know my voices more. The Maastricht interview is a series of questions that facilitates more self understanding - it might be triggering, so it might be useful to prepare yourself. Look in your local area to see if you can do it in person. If not, voila! http://www.hearingvoices.org.nz/attachments/article/59/Maastricht_Interview_for_voice_hearers.pdf (fwiw I’ve not done it yet but want to lol & I’ve met voice hearers who it’s helped.)

You’re not dirty or wrong for a voice saying graphic and horrible things. <3 It’s OK to hear graphic and disturbing voices. It’s not a reflection on you. It’s OK and normal to hear these things. You deserve safety & kindness.

If your voices get loud in new or anxiety provoking situations, give them some detailed advanced warning. Voices don’t always know what’s happening, what year it is, etc - they’re not always oriented to our reality. Saying, say, “I am going to a job interview on Saturday. Here is what is going to happen on Saturday: …” can help them, so they don’t get anxious and take it out on you.

Start the small steps of building a collaborative relationship with your voices. Is your voice telling you to kill yourself, others, and that you’re worthless? Obviously, don’t do these things lol - but it might help to ask the voice if it has, say… a preference for a TV show, or a food. Something that doesn’t hurt you to accommodate. It can start the small steps of building a good relationship to take small preferences of the voice on board.

Educate your friends so they can be kinder to you. I like this talk! https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=syjEN3peCJw Most of my friends who were frightened of me & my voices were much more understanding after watching this. But you choose your resources. 

Accept that it’s ok to be distressed by them and it’s ok to struggle to cope.. Give yourself as much slack as you can. Hearing voices can be so gruelling. It can be isolating and lonely and PHYSICALLY exhausting. You don’t have to do it all. NONE of us can be ‘super-copers’. It’s OK to need rest, and to cut yourself some slack.

Honourary mentions for https://www.hearing-voices.org/ & https://www.intervoiceonline.org/ & https://understandingvoices.com/ c: