Why Maladaptive Daydreaming (MaDD) Should Be Classified A Dissociative Disorder

TW: DISCUSSION OF PROGRAMMING, CULT MENTION (RAMCOA), AND TBMC MENTION. STAY SAFE!!!

Being polyfrag and having programmed parts is so weird. Like one example, having layers is super weird because I don’t even who know the host or co-host are. I don’t know who most of the system is, as our area only has around 22 parts (small for us). Though, I suppose it’s probably for protection as most are programmed and all but one (I think???) has nothing directly to do with any trauma.

Speaking of programming, our host is in huge denial of it!! In our journal xe’re like “yeah we have parts that literally follow a mysterious religious figure nobody has ever heard of and we have parts that are like practicing extremely loyal sex cult followers and parts for enduring TBMC as well as all the symptoms of programmed aka HC-DID but I can’t remember any of it so it must be quirkiness” like ??????? It’s almost as if you’re a supposed to be like that XD

And that’s not even mentioning how large our system is!!! We have exactly 90 logged parts, a little over 3/4s of which are fragments. I know Ellie and probably some others are also questioning if they’re a subsystem (in the alter with alters way) because of slight amnesia and slightly differing roles. And I know that the 90 known, even if nobody known is a subsystem, are not all of us.

We have times where we black out and we don’t know who fronted, but it appears to be somebody who hasn’t been logged. There have been times where we are doing one thing and all of a sudden we’re somewhere doing something we didn’t know we would do, and nobody knows who it was.

There’s so much to us, it’s like an iceberg except the parts of the iceberg don’t know the other parts, and the pieces of the iceberg above and below the surface don’t know the other exists. So strange!!!

Things endos/tulpas don’t talk about or romanticize about DID/OSDD

tw: mentions of trauma, csa, abuse, hallucinations, introject guilt, self harm

Not remembering/knowing seemingly common information (math, history, trivia, etc) because your trauma blocked it out.

Introjects of abusers.

Alters with opinions/beliefs that are generally harmful (homophobic, pro-MAP, sexist, etc.)

Introjects from harmful/problematic sources because of what you used to cope during trauma.

hallucinations and flashbacks

hypoarousal and tonic immobility

hypersexual littles from previous csa

introject guilt (feeling bad for being canon divergent, pressure to be “accurate”)

nobody wanting to front and feeling empty/hollow.

fear of not being taken seriously even by medical professionals

fear of being seen as evil

system responsibility even in horrible situations

alters that self harm the body, fronting only to see you are in immense pain

having to be covert and not knowing who to trust

fear of faking or that your trauma wasnt enough to cause this disorder

species dysphoria and age dysphoria not being taken seriously because of how non-systems appropriated it

feeling disgusting or unlovable because of your trauma

feeling rage because endos/tulpas appropriated this serious disorder.

A new OSDD/DID combo cheat for terror/panic attack!

- keeping the eyes open to minimize flooding and switching, looking at an object in the room that was gotten in the last calendar year to ground in the present

- heavy stuffy on the chest

- EMDR bilateral music in headphones

- alternate thumbs rubbing on stuffy

- eventually when able to move more, alternate palms rubbing slowly on stuffy's back

- repeating "of course you're scared, that makes total sense, you can be scared right now and we'll hold you" worked for today

- pat the stuffy, soothe the scared part, slow soft pats like on a baby's bum or back to gentle them

- gradually, sit up/change positions and rock and stim to release the rest of the adrenaline/energy

- eventually did a reorienting exercise to ground in the present

The terror ebbed a lot gentler and sooner than I expected! Very proud and grateful. Love having a stuffy with heavy beads in it.

Lineart by @theywhoshantbenamed

Colours by @freshwolfprofessoreggs

Things we as a RAMCOA survivor want non-survivors to know

This is going to be emotional but this has also been a long time coming. Most of our 34 drafts on this account have been on this topic and today something happened that was just the last straw for us. If you are not a survivor sit the fuck down and shut the fuck up. It's our turn now. You are privileged comparatively on this regard- whether you like it or not.

Do not silence RAMCOA survivors in favor of people with "false memories"

I have no idea why this is something that needs to be said because you would assume it would be common decency but apparently a lot of non-RAMCOA survivors seem to be completely unaware of how fucked up it is to say.

Not only has false memory syndrome been thoroughly debunked- but the only time someone has anything close is when they have a disorder that makes them prone to delusions. In which case that is a delusion. Stop blaming survivors who are working to recover and possibly save the lives of others who currently as you read this are actively being tortured, for a disorder that most people are born with and has literally nothing to do with us. Stop using "some people have delusions" as a backhanded way to harm RAMCOA survivors.

I am sick and tired of people making it clear they care far more about people with "false memories" than they do for real torture survivors.

Do not tell a RAMCOA survivor to their face you have had false memories of the torture they actively endured. It is incredibly insensitive and is a mockery of the torture they experienced.

And if one more "person" makes the claim that RAMCOA survivors talking about our experiences, the things that were done to us and others, is putting people with a disorder we didn't cause in danger- I will snap. We didn't give anyone a disorder- we didn't manifest your fucking delusions. You can work through your delusions in therapy- we have physical and mental injuries that will never fully heal from our REAL experience. It is such a disgusting and selfish thing to do. You are not allies- you are harming all survivors.

Stop telling RAMCOA survivors to never look into things

It's funny how this is often done in order to try and aid and help us, considering not having the terminology almost got us killed.

Non-ramcoa survivors telling RAMCOA survivors that talking about RAMCOA is dangerous and they should never look into it are actively harming programmed systems by triggering silence programs and making them self-destruct and get less access to aid, community, and terminology to be able to explain experiences to a medical professional and there has been little to no proof that learning about RAMCOA has ever killed a RAMCOA survivor.

People who push this idea that "it's too dangerous for you :((" and shut down all ramcoa survivors and then try to destroy our community terms like HC-DID (highly complex; this is used to described programmed systems that are polyfragmented and their complex structures) because of some idea of being a glorious savior to us- are just being incredibly selfish and insensitive. It has never been about helping us, not ever. It has been about you and people like you wanting to feel like you're oh so cool and good and special. That you "really care" about the likes of the poor weak incapable RAMCOA survivors.

We don't need to be babied. We fucking crawled out of the bowels of hell itself and have been through things that people often don't survive. Some of us have to fight programs every day- before and after knowing about our survivor status. Omega programming didn't start when we learned about RAMCOA- it first kicked off when we were nine years old. You failing to educate yourselves on the way programming functions yet insisting on speaking for us and people like us is infuriating. We are not children and even the ones that are do not fucking need you to baby them.

The only people we have ever seen proclaim talking about how "speaking on RAMCOA is bad and dangerous!!!!" are one of two groups; Non ramcoa-survivors speaking for us, and RAMCOA survivors with a program actively causing them to say this. In case you don't know much about programming, there is programs that make you try and silence both yourself and other people. This is one of the most well known types of programs. I am sorry to say this but we genuinely believe that most if not all RAMCOA survivors saying this are having a program run.

People pushing this message onto us literally triggered our silence program for so long we couldn't say much to our therapist until we learned terminology. It took that for us to be put on a disappearance watch list. This community idea could have gotten us killed. We were in literal danger because we could not manage to tell our therapist about our experiences because others had said the very same words our abusers did. "Don't tell anyone."

RAMCOA perpetrators do fucking everything they can to make sure we never speak. You are aiding abusers by contributing to our silence and you are possibly sending people to die. This is not a thing I can be lighthearted about. This is something that has made our system have alters that deeply hate and despise anyone who contributed to it with us and the same to anyone who may have done so to others.

Edit: For those who struggle to interpret this- no we never said you should randomly spur of the moment look into RAMCOA with no safety nets. That should be common sense. We also literally never said that anywhere. I don't know why people are so incapable to read what we say. We're autistic we say what we mean.

Do you have any resources for figuring out if you've experienced OA or just resources about OA in general?

Cw: mention of gangs and trafficking, neglect, sadism, torture.

We ourselves just started to realize we also experienced OA and it's been a hellish discovery to realize. It should've been obvious but in out case it was a mix of not knowing the definition and not remembering enough.

Defining Organized Abuse (OA)

taken from a previous post here

Organized abuse is abuse done by two or more people in a pre-meditated nature. The most well known forms of OA are things such as trafficking and gangs. However this can also happen in other situations. If someone has two parents who have conspired purposefully together in order to do excessive harm to a child- that can count as OA. If two or more people conspire and plan and enact abuse upon you- it is... OA regardless if it is part of some greater group or not. The abuse must be repeated (more than one incident) and sadistic/cruel- often going far enough to be considered torture. It does not need to be done in the name of any ideology and may just be done for personal gratification or sadism.

How to know if you experienced it?

This is a super personal thing and depends on what you can remember of your trauma typically. You may have signs that make it seem like you could have experienced but it's nothing that can be 100% certain. If two or more people conspired to attack or abuse you it is a form of organized abuse. There will obviously be different levels of extremity and how large of groups are involved or not, but the nature of planned and pre-meditated abuse with multiple perpetrators differs enough from experiences that happen outside of that framework that it falls enough another category. That category being OA. We sadly cannot tell you if you have experienced something or not. And sometimes it can just be a nagging suspicion for a while.

If you have knowledge that a trafficking ring was busted later on in a place you once lived or was partially busted, be willing to be open to the idea you could have been involved if you were at risk to a reasonable degree of coming into contact with them. For us it was sever neglect making us an easy target. Or if you have gang activity in the area, and seem to know a lot more about gangs than the normal person does and have massive triggers around it more so than would be expected just from being in areas that have it- chances are you might have experienced something there too. But that doesn't make it a 100% chance either. It is just something to be aware of as a possibility and if it didn't happen you may have been adjacent enough or made aware at some point then forgot of the stuff happening in your area, which is also deeply traumatic and would be good to be aware of.

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We're not in a place where we can do much in depth research into it due to our own mental state currently so we will not be providing resources or links as we do not like pushing things out without having read them first and we cannot bring ourselves to read things that can get too close to specifics we experienced.

Note: Seeing as you are not fully certain if you have experienced this or not please do be careful. Wait to look into this until you're in an emotionally stable place. Especially the resources/information as they pretty much are bound to contain triggering content. If you feel off, bad, dissociative, or triggered, close the tab maybe turn off the device and calm down and wait at least a day to go back (we'd suggest longer but I know sometimes it's hard).

⚠️TW- Talks of Death⚠️

However. However while it's true an alter within headspace cannot truly die and more goes into a "slumber" aka dormancy there are actual ways alters can "die".

•An alter who was front and experienced a near death experience might turn into a ghost alter

•An alter who has been dormant for so long and their amnesia walls are so high up could be considered dead

•For our System we have a Purgatory meaning that alters who no longer wish to be within the System will go into Purgatory where memories are "erased" and essentially are declared "deceased" as they no longer take front nor do they consider themselves to be associated with main Inner World, the Side System or even Subsystems.

•Purgatory Example-

Two of our alters/headmates were once considered to be "mortal" one is an adult trauma holder and another is a Little trauma holder.

The adult holder experienced a near death experience when front and in the Inner World got pushed into Purgatory. This one alter is the only alter that managed to escape from Purgatory with memories in tact.

The other alter to essentially "die" is our Little holder. This Little became a zombie. This Little willingly placed themselves in Purgatory due to the high stress of trauma.

These are just two possible examples plus one special of how an alter within headspace could "die" however an alter dying in the Inner World and no longer being of an existence is not possible as even if they turn into an undead or ghost alter they're still within the head.

The one and only way alters can truly die, cease to exist is when the body dies. With DID alters are created by and from the brain due to trauma. When humans pass, the brain will no longer function along with the rest of the body. This is the only way and how alters can truly die

I have a question, for systems whove never switched before/have someone frontstuck, how do you deal with that? Like how do you get them unfrontstuck? Our host has been frontstuck for two years and we dont know what to do and we’re desperate at this point

here's some resources for switching:

https://plural.systems/posts/switching/

https://www.feathersong.org/plural-howto/feathers-guide-to-fronting-and-switching/

https://gist.github.com/Xe/b97203769acb3dfa761f#malfaels-guide-to-switching

https://write.as/within/switching

https://www.reddit.com/r/Tulpas/comments/1cigb6/selfawarebots_switching_guide/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Tulpas/comments/2f7ysm/guide_so_you_wanna_switch_do_you_really_might_be/

https://www.reddit.com/r/Tulpas/comments/5gaqye/a_quick_switching_practice_selftest_miniguide/

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.reddit.com/r/plural/comments/gk4a0z/learning_to_switch_voluntarily/

a lot of these are for tulpas, but should still work for any system

Does McLean Hospital Have Ties To MK Ultra?

Claims made, the evidence, the known facts, and the falsehoods.

CW/Brief: This talks about a government ran mind control project that took place in 1953-1973. Claims recently have resurfaced as a reaction to a contentious video that was released. This video was greatly contested by people with DID and professionals in psychiatry and psychology alike for it's poor handling of subject material and violation of ethics. This will not go fully in depth on the tactics used but addresses more recent claims about the hospital that originally hosted this video. There will be usage of words like torture. This also will mention a prolific case where the victim ended up becoming a terrible person- murder may be mentioned. This case was only brought up due to its prolific nature.

READ AT YOUR OWN RISK

Terminology used

RAMCOA: A specific subset of purposeful abuse, known to primarily be done by groups. Ritual Abuse, Mind Control, and Organized Abuse.

TBMC: Trauma/Torture Based Mind Control.

Mk-Ultra: A government run CIA project/operation meant to try and mind control agents and civilians alike. This has heavy ties to TBMC.

Syscourse: System based discourse that tends to happen surrounding plurality or multiplicity (a self-schema) and DID/OSDD-1 a dissociative disorder that often has the Alters be highly focused upon. Syscourse usually culminates in fights between those with "endogenic plurality" and "CDDs" (CDDs are known as Complex Dissociative Disorders) we engage in this on our main and mention it as it does tie into the sorts of reasons the claims surfaced recently.

TLDR; There are possible and reasonable claims that McLean plausibly could have had a hand in Mk-Ultra in the past. It is fact that they have ties to Mk-Ultra, by association with Harvard Medical. The ties do not by any means implicate them in any form of guilt. There is no evidence that McLean for certain ever had any involvement in the past, however it is plausible. There is absolutely NO reason to suspect the hospital currently in the year of 2023, fifty years after the project (if they even had any hand in it), has been closed. The resurfacing of this discussion happened due to victims of similar experiences (TBMC/RAMCOA) becoming triggered by the aforementioned video and finding this information out and not doing their due diligence to handle any of it with the care it deserves. This was not the time to bring this up, this is a separate discussion that should have never been tied to the video. The current way the claims and accusations are being handled and the fear mongering is a net negative both for this discussion and for causing unnecessary distrust in doctors who are there to genuinely help. Additionally there are false claims mixed in with the true ones, such as the claim that McLean continued to partake in horrific experiments until 1987, which has no source other than a known conspiracy theorist.

Full Post

We were planning to stay fully out of syscourse for a little while but seeing as things/discussions for RAMCOA got crosstagged as syscourse we ended up running into something that we want to thoroughly stamp out the idea of. To preface this, yes, we are a RAMCOA survivor. The full details we have stated ever are very minimal, we are purposefully hiding a shit ton of things. However what remains is the fact we are a victim of TBMC, our RAMCOA was more focused upon MC than any other aspect. As such we took a very specific interest in this situation. Feel free to tag this post as syscourse if you want, we do not consider it such ourselves as this pertains directly to a type of trauma.

There is actually a loose connection to be made between McLean hospital and MK-Ultra. McLean Hospital had ties to Harvard Medical, which has been purportedly linked to MK-Ultra. The one declassified governmental mind control project.

This dates back all the way to 1977, this is not the only claim of Harvard's involvement either. In fact anyone who is morbidly curious may know of a famous case very, very well. Theodore Kaczynski, otherwise known as the Unabomber. It is a known fact that this man was a victim of MK Ultra and experimentation by Harvard. This has been known for a very long time.

To be clear TBMC does not excuse murder. We as a survivor of TBMC ourselves are not a danger, however it must be recognized that in some cases people are not criminally responsible due to their mental functionality. This is similar to a case where someone pleads insanity- the actions are heinous and still were UNDENIABLY his doing. We are not saying he should not be blamed, nor are we making light of his victims. Explanations are not excuses.

Some minimal sources.

The Atlantic

Harvard and the Making of the Unabomber

A series of purposely brutalizing psychological experiments may have confirmed Theodore Kaczynski’s still-forming belief in the evil of scie

Exploring your mind

The Harvard Experiment that Led to the Unabomber

Although he participated in a Harvard experiment and is extremely smart, Ted Kaczynski is now serving time in a maximum-security...

These are only one of many many articles, videos, deep dives, and talks about this situation and the irreparable damage that the way human experimentation in the USA has messed people up in more recent times.

If you had any awareness of the general situation surrounding these things you would realize the claims are predicated upon a long standing history of Harvard Medical specifically having definitive ties and accusations to ties with MK-Ultra. The accusations have not arisen out of thin air, this isn't a new claim, this has been brought up numerous times in the past. These claims came well before the current issue surrounding one man's horrendous presentation on DID- the DSM-4 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual 4th Edition) even was made after accusations of Harvard Medical being tied to Mk-Ultra.

Harvard Medical spawned McLean Hospital

People are making an association and are wondering if this was one of the ways that Harvard Medical along with the CIA accessed victims. This wonder does however have no definitive answers from what we can gather and should not be treated as fact.

Additionally many people have reasonable and not unfounded fears that said practices never truly stopped. However, these for the current day and year, 2023 are unfounded claims. A reasonable fear or reasonable feeling still does not always denote truth in what is feared. It is reasonable for us to fear the Christian faith given our history, however it factually is not pure evil and can be practiced healthily. (Not a great comparison but we had to think of something)

The debunked accusations of specifically McLean hospital being involved was from 1987 in which a conspiracy theorist claimed McLean was still doing these horrific experiments and tortures. The thing that was disproven was that they had continued to be involved, not that they had never been involved. To our understand the difference in these two cases is that there is numerous possible claims that McLean may have been involved in the past but only one which claimed this from a very untrustworthy source.

There is currently no evidence to prove they were not involved. However there is also seemingly no evidence to prove Mclean Hospital were involved as well. Due to the connections in administration in that time period, it is reasonable to conclude that it is plausible that Mclean did contribute all the way back when MK-Ultra was active, just as much as it is reasonable to conclude it is plausible they did not.

Does this mean it should be treated as fact? No. But the RAMCOA survivors who immediately learn of these connections and assume the worst are having a reasonable emotional reaction when paired with what RAMCOA survivors like us have experienced. The feelings are reasonable, but the fact of the matter in many cases just seems to not be there.

By denying the plausibility you are plausibly denying the experience of victims who are still alive to this day. As such many people (us included) still feel weird about definitively saying that there is no chance this happened in the past. However we must be fully aware and acknowledge that there is not enough evidence of this being the case, therefore it is wrong from a factual point to say that they were involved.

Again, does this reflect the modern day?

Absolutely not. I would say that to our knowledge the majority of doctors at the hospital who are (especially) younger than their 50 are not involved nor should be implicated. Anyone who was a child when Mk-Ultra launched and/or concluded should be automatically removed from a list of possible perpetrators. Additionally it will only harm what we do believe could be good doctors who had no idea of these things, many people today are far removed from things like Mk-Ultra, many if not most may have had no awareness of the past allegations.

You can address the fact that worries or claims that McLean Hospital or Harvard Medical today are doing this as false, without fully denying the plausibility of a dark past. Especially when it comes to Harvard Medical.

(Side note, just because something came form another organization does not necessarily mean they did the same practices. Additionally, I would argue, given the history of government projects only those directly involved with the experimentation would be aware of what was occurring and not all workers even within the hospital).

We took it upon ourselves to look into it initially- we already knew about the Unabomber being an Mk-Ultra victim, we only recently knew he had ties to Harvard Medical. And yes, we have found a few claims that the specific hospital he was put in when tortured was McLean, but those have only been on articles that require one to sign up or buy fully access which we are not doing.

Please just try and understand why some RAMCOA survivors have reacted the way they have, do more than just look on reddit or see that one lunatic claiming McLean was continuing on Mk-Ultra in 1987. Because what many are doing is resorting to a long time form of systemic oppression against RAMCOA survivors. The default of calling all of them delusional and conspiracy theorists. It is not delusion to see something so similar to your experience and make a connect even if it is faulty, delusion is another mental health issue entirely.

Acknowledge how things can be emotional reactions, while also acknowledging the bits of truth within those reactions. We do not think that this being brought up in response to specifically the DID video is good- we think it creates fear and leads to fear mongering about hospitals and doctors. This is something that should be brought up and addressed in its own right. But the timing was poor, and the reasons behind it were filled and fueled with people who were triggered in a variety of ways and were not actually discussing it out of concern for the victims. (We are usually not big on what the motivations behind something are but when your motivations end up seeping through and possibly harming an important discussion it does become a concern.)

1. Yes! A good chunk of our sidesystems don’t 

2. HC-DID, and I said we have a brother hi counting numbers somewhere around the 400

3. Yes we have a lot of  accents, does not mean we’re fake, we just grew in a very diverse place.

4. Yes, I’m starting to stutter because of silence programming. Please please change the topic. It will only get worse 

Questions for other systems (traumagenics only)

🚨Warning: has a question mentioning MC (no details/abuse descriptions)🚨

Do you have any alters that don’t know they’re a part of a system?

If you’re polyfragmented (both C-DID and HC-DID, or just polyfrag if you prefer), do you have a high number of alters or are you medium to low on the alter count?

What’s one thing you wished people could know about your system specifically?

For systems with MC, what’s one thing that you wished people knew about programming/MC?

I’ll make a reblog answering these questions if I feel like it, if not I’ll just let y’all answer. Not that I wouldn’t do that anyways.