Hi, I Noticed Your Post Explaining HC-DID, And I Was Wondering More About Sidesystems? And Hoping For

What counts as TBMC? Ex-Pentecostal wanting to know because I never really see clear and concise definitions on these things and trying to research RAMCOA gives me a lot of dodgy right wing rhetoric which I don't want to keep having to comb through for my own sanity.

TBMC is known by as two things. One: trauma based mind control. Two: torture based mind control.

Most survivors we've also ran into prefer the former because it tends to include things that are less extreme and not everyone feels their trauma went far enough to be considered torture. It's also unfortunately true that a lotta alt-righters tend to get into mind control in a more co-opting nature, which is ironic given the group that did that to us was alt-right. Honestly we find the TB to be unnecessary given mind control is always traumatic and is inherently horrific.

What counts as TBMC?

TBMC is something done primarily through abusive means to induce a dissociative state, in which one becomes more suggestible. This can be done in order to intentionally create parts/alters (when done starting on someone as a child in rare cases) or just to make someone behave the way you want them to. This is why sometimes people who are abducted by other countries as agents betray their old group and join in with their abusers. (For an extreme example). Other ways the dissociative state is achieved is through putting people into forms of trances. This can be done with meditation or mantras, forced hypnotization, and at times substances.

We've got a good mixture of both mind control and conditioning. The conditioning is done more via Pavlov's Dogs type experiences and "training" and is less tied to TBMC and typically easier to train out of. Mind control- especially in those raised with it- is driven into a part of their personality. It becomes an essential piece of the whole identity and it is not something that can be taken away without proper aid and therapy. You cannot deprogram yourself from mind control the way you can "uncondition" yourself, so to speak.

Anything that was driven into you while in a dissociative state (thus highly suggestible) or being actively traumatized that is ideological, personal, an act, behaviors, etc. is typically a form of mind control. A very common example of this is being made to be fully and completely dependent upon your leader/an authority figure. This may result in what is reminiscent of worship of the individual and in some cases leaves the victims incapable of making decisions. To this day we have to ask friends in desperation what food we should eat because the idea of deciding for ourselves is far too difficult. We roll dice connected to numbers to mark our decisions in hopes of having a way to make a choice. (And again, this is but one example.)

Some of the information we have garnered on the subject comes from a variety of sources more heavily focused upon cults as that was what we grew up in and with. We have dug deep into the information on what makes a cult a cult and what signs of specific types of cultic programming we exhibit. Even then programming can be hard to categorize and know what is meant by because it's so personal and specific in its application. I am uncertain if we are of much help- but I will say we personally see no harm in if you find spaces appropriate for it, asking if specific things you expect may be programming or signs of TBMC are able to be labeled as such. That's what we had to do to accept we were a RAMCOA survivor as we originally had less memories of the cult until given the name by our parents (to be clear we did this only because we were already in therapy and part of our recovery and work is being done in order to come out against the group and the leader, and have full legal protections as a whistle blower)

System Internet Safety (Resource Post)

System Internet Safety

System Internet Safety

A Quick & Dissociated Guide To: System Internet Safety

Be Careful What You Share About Your System

How To Keep Yourself Safe From Fear Mongering & Misinformation

How Social Media Can Distort & Misinform when Communicating Science

Understanding & Avoiding Armchair Psychology

Understanding & Protecting Yourself From Syscourse

System Responsibility

Tips From a Tumblr Vet (10+ Years on this Hellsite)

Tips for Kids Online

Social Media Tips for Teens

Online Abuse Resources

The Online Harassment Manual

Speak up & Stay Safe®: A Guide to Protecting Yourself From Online Harassment

How Doxers Find Your Info & How To Protect Yourself

How To Stay Safe From Doxxing With A VPN

Tip Sheet: Keeping Adults & Kids Safe on the Internet (TW: csa)

Behaviors To Watch Out For When An Adult Is With A Child (TW: csa)

How To Asses How Toxic A Group is

Warning Signs That a System is Toxic

System-related Abuse

Reporting Online Abuse

Reporting Cyberbullying

Reporting Online Child Exploitation

I don't feel like theres a lot of resources or just even thought given to systems still like. In it. Still in, or adjacent to, the abusive or traumatic environments culpable for the development of this coping mechanism in the first place.

People will talk about persecutors and self-harmful system members, honestly, it feels like pretty much only in the context of a safe or safe-adjacent environment. And I understand. This community is really recovery focused, especially because a lot of people only realize they're a part of it because they're in recovery. When it's such a large portion of the community, its expected that they pay so much focus to it.

But when you are newly in this community, trying to work & communicate with other system members, regardless still having to heavily use that coping mechanism in the "maladaptive" way, and everyone is talking about you and your essential work & role in your system as "that one asshole trying to help, but little do they know the danger is gone and now all they are is a huge prick! ohohohoho! persecutor positivity 💖" it's just. It's honestly just infuriating.

For one! Does your persecutor feel safe or are you just telling them it is? Second. Some of us (persecutors) in the community still have to do our fucking jobs. I feel wonderful for people who can afford different coping mechanisms, whether they are still in the overwhelming environment or not. But some of us cannot. I can't always afford to have a caretaker making sure everybody feels fine and safe, sometimes I just need to get a trauma holder (who really can't fucking be here) out, and keep them out. And sometimes, that means you're gonna be fucking mean.

I just want some sympathy for who I am now. Not some fictionalized ideal of myself that "exists in the future", when this isn't needed anymore. I don't want the only narrative I hear about myself (and other persecutor types) to be that not only am I protecting myself in a "really bad way", but I have no place in this community or even my own system until I am no longer doing that. 'That', of course, being 'keeping my head above the water'. I want people to understand that the work I do can and does help, I'm valuable now, not just "in the future" when I've been fixed reformed into a protector.

I'm probably blowing this specific issue way out of proportion. I just want to feel like I'm not just automatically percieved as "that 'internally-abusive' POS every system has", especially when we as a system know it helps our situation overall, and people do seem to know that persecutors act that way for a reason. I am still experiencing that reason. Yes, there are... times when my expertise should not be employed, I do understand that I can cause unnecessary harm those times, and me and our caregiver get into spats about that kinda stuff. But as our caretaker he also understands that my "bad" actions are necessary sometimes, I am valuable even like this, (and also that he's lot better at gauging whether something needs to be persecuted away than I am, so it can be hard not to get carried away sometimes ime)..... but most importantly, he understands that I am as much affected by the situation we're in as anyone else, and right now, as long as its efficient in just getting us out the other side, anything goes.

I know I'm hurtful. I know that when we do get out of this, a lot of those resources on becoming a """""reformed""""" persecutor will suddenly probably be very helpful to me. But there has to be more sympathy (focus, resources, etc) for people in this community that still have to use these ("maladaptive") coping mechanisms. Constantly talking horribly about members of your community that are not only that way for a very understandable reason, but often have to keep being that way just so they don't end up dead, is. Not very productive or healthy for the overall community imo.

I don't really know what else to say. People still in this shit, people who need to use the skills they adapted regardless if its '"healthy", or pleasant, or palatable, we need this community. We are already here, and every single one of you has been in our place once, even if you were not aware of it. Please. Please have sympathy for me. My actions. Who I am. There is no other way I can be right now. Please.

Can people stop pushing the idea that you shouldn’t share information about RAMCOA at all? Yeah, sharing detailed information about programming publicly or with people who don’t need it can be dangerous, but it’s already such a taboo topic to the point where a lot of survivors feel like they can’t even speak up about what happened to them. And they have the right to, they endured it.

If you’re saying “be careful how much you share about programming” that’s valid. I’ve seen a lot of people saying that and that makes perfect sense. But “don’t talk about RAMCOA” do people not realize that’s what many of the perpetrators of this type of abuse want? They want total silence. They go to insane lengths just to ensure survivors can’t talk about this. They thrive off secrecy. They’re protected by people’s ignorance. This is a widespread issue that requires a societal effort to put a stop to. How will that happen if people aren’t educated on the fact that this happens, at the very least?

I know a lot of people can use this info to hurt people or get some sick pleasure from hearing about the abuse. But that doesn’t take away the need for the existence of this to be heard and known about. It happens, people need to know that part. They just shouldn’t go digging deeper if they don’t need to. Stop silencing survivors.

What counts as TBMC? Ex-Pentecostal wanting to know because I never really see clear and concise definitions on these things and trying to research RAMCOA gives me a lot of dodgy right wing rhetoric which I don't want to keep having to comb through for my own sanity.

TBMC is known by as two things. One: trauma based mind control. Two: torture based mind control.

Most survivors we've also ran into prefer the former because it tends to include things that are less extreme and not everyone feels their trauma went far enough to be considered torture. It's also unfortunately true that a lotta alt-righters tend to get into mind control in a more co-opting nature, which is ironic given the group that did that to us was alt-right. Honestly we find the TB to be unnecessary given mind control is always traumatic and is inherently horrific.

What counts as TBMC?

TBMC is something done primarily through abusive means to induce a dissociative state, in which one becomes more suggestible. This can be done in order to intentionally create parts/alters (when done starting on someone as a child in rare cases) or just to make someone behave the way you want them to. This is why sometimes people who are abducted by other countries as agents betray their old group and join in with their abusers. (For an extreme example). Other ways the dissociative state is achieved is through putting people into forms of trances. This can be done with meditation or mantras, forced hypnotization, and at times substances.

We've got a good mixture of both mind control and conditioning. The conditioning is done more via Pavlov's Dogs type experiences and "training" and is less tied to TBMC and typically easier to train out of. Mind control- especially in those raised with it- is driven into a part of their personality. It becomes an essential piece of the whole identity and it is not something that can be taken away without proper aid and therapy. You cannot deprogram yourself from mind control the way you can "uncondition" yourself, so to speak.

Anything that was driven into you while in a dissociative state (thus highly suggestible) or being actively traumatized that is ideological, personal, an act, behaviors, etc. is typically a form of mind control. A very common example of this is being made to be fully and completely dependent upon your leader/an authority figure. This may result in what is reminiscent of worship of the individual and in some cases leaves the victims incapable of making decisions. To this day we have to ask friends in desperation what food we should eat because the idea of deciding for ourselves is far too difficult. We roll dice connected to numbers to mark our decisions in hopes of having a way to make a choice. (And again, this is but one example.)

Some of the information we have garnered on the subject comes from a variety of sources more heavily focused upon cults as that was what we grew up in and with. We have dug deep into the information on what makes a cult a cult and what signs of specific types of cultic programming we exhibit. Even then programming can be hard to categorize and know what is meant by because it's so personal and specific in its application. I am uncertain if we are of much help- but I will say we personally see no harm in if you find spaces appropriate for it, asking if specific things you expect may be programming or signs of TBMC are able to be labeled as such. That's what we had to do to accept we were a RAMCOA survivor as we originally had less memories of the cult until given the name by our parents (to be clear we did this only because we were already in therapy and part of our recovery and work is being done in order to come out against the group and the leader, and have full legal protections as a whistle blower)

Does McLean Hospital Have Ties To MK Ultra?

Claims made, the evidence, the known facts, and the falsehoods.

CW/Brief: This talks about a government ran mind control project that took place in 1953-1973. Claims recently have resurfaced as a reaction to a contentious video that was released. This video was greatly contested by people with DID and professionals in psychiatry and psychology alike for it's poor handling of subject material and violation of ethics. This will not go fully in depth on the tactics used but addresses more recent claims about the hospital that originally hosted this video. There will be usage of words like torture. This also will mention a prolific case where the victim ended up becoming a terrible person- murder may be mentioned. This case was only brought up due to its prolific nature.

READ AT YOUR OWN RISK

Terminology used

RAMCOA: A specific subset of purposeful abuse, known to primarily be done by groups. Ritual Abuse, Mind Control, and Organized Abuse.

TBMC: Trauma/Torture Based Mind Control.

Mk-Ultra: A government run CIA project/operation meant to try and mind control agents and civilians alike. This has heavy ties to TBMC.

Syscourse: System based discourse that tends to happen surrounding plurality or multiplicity (a self-schema) and DID/OSDD-1 a dissociative disorder that often has the Alters be highly focused upon. Syscourse usually culminates in fights between those with "endogenic plurality" and "CDDs" (CDDs are known as Complex Dissociative Disorders) we engage in this on our main and mention it as it does tie into the sorts of reasons the claims surfaced recently.

TLDR; There are possible and reasonable claims that McLean plausibly could have had a hand in Mk-Ultra in the past. It is fact that they have ties to Mk-Ultra, by association with Harvard Medical. The ties do not by any means implicate them in any form of guilt. There is no evidence that McLean for certain ever had any involvement in the past, however it is plausible. There is absolutely NO reason to suspect the hospital currently in the year of 2023, fifty years after the project (if they even had any hand in it), has been closed. The resurfacing of this discussion happened due to victims of similar experiences (TBMC/RAMCOA) becoming triggered by the aforementioned video and finding this information out and not doing their due diligence to handle any of it with the care it deserves. This was not the time to bring this up, this is a separate discussion that should have never been tied to the video. The current way the claims and accusations are being handled and the fear mongering is a net negative both for this discussion and for causing unnecessary distrust in doctors who are there to genuinely help. Additionally there are false claims mixed in with the true ones, such as the claim that McLean continued to partake in horrific experiments until 1987, which has no source other than a known conspiracy theorist.

Full Post

We were planning to stay fully out of syscourse for a little while but seeing as things/discussions for RAMCOA got crosstagged as syscourse we ended up running into something that we want to thoroughly stamp out the idea of. To preface this, yes, we are a RAMCOA survivor. The full details we have stated ever are very minimal, we are purposefully hiding a shit ton of things. However what remains is the fact we are a victim of TBMC, our RAMCOA was more focused upon MC than any other aspect. As such we took a very specific interest in this situation. Feel free to tag this post as syscourse if you want, we do not consider it such ourselves as this pertains directly to a type of trauma.

There is actually a loose connection to be made between McLean hospital and MK-Ultra. McLean Hospital had ties to Harvard Medical, which has been purportedly linked to MK-Ultra. The one declassified governmental mind control project.

This dates back all the way to 1977, this is not the only claim of Harvard's involvement either. In fact anyone who is morbidly curious may know of a famous case very, very well. Theodore Kaczynski, otherwise known as the Unabomber. It is a known fact that this man was a victim of MK Ultra and experimentation by Harvard. This has been known for a very long time.

To be clear TBMC does not excuse murder. We as a survivor of TBMC ourselves are not a danger, however it must be recognized that in some cases people are not criminally responsible due to their mental functionality. This is similar to a case where someone pleads insanity- the actions are heinous and still were UNDENIABLY his doing. We are not saying he should not be blamed, nor are we making light of his victims. Explanations are not excuses.

Some minimal sources.

The Atlantic

Harvard and the Making of the Unabomber

A series of purposely brutalizing psychological experiments may have confirmed Theodore Kaczynski’s still-forming belief in the evil of scie

Exploring your mind

The Harvard Experiment that Led to the Unabomber

Although he participated in a Harvard experiment and is extremely smart, Ted Kaczynski is now serving time in a maximum-security...

These are only one of many many articles, videos, deep dives, and talks about this situation and the irreparable damage that the way human experimentation in the USA has messed people up in more recent times.

If you had any awareness of the general situation surrounding these things you would realize the claims are predicated upon a long standing history of Harvard Medical specifically having definitive ties and accusations to ties with MK-Ultra. The accusations have not arisen out of thin air, this isn't a new claim, this has been brought up numerous times in the past. These claims came well before the current issue surrounding one man's horrendous presentation on DID- the DSM-4 (Diagnostic and Statistical Manual 4th Edition) even was made after accusations of Harvard Medical being tied to Mk-Ultra.

Harvard Medical spawned McLean Hospital

People are making an association and are wondering if this was one of the ways that Harvard Medical along with the CIA accessed victims. This wonder does however have no definitive answers from what we can gather and should not be treated as fact.

Additionally many people have reasonable and not unfounded fears that said practices never truly stopped. However, these for the current day and year, 2023 are unfounded claims. A reasonable fear or reasonable feeling still does not always denote truth in what is feared. It is reasonable for us to fear the Christian faith given our history, however it factually is not pure evil and can be practiced healthily. (Not a great comparison but we had to think of something)

The debunked accusations of specifically McLean hospital being involved was from 1987 in which a conspiracy theorist claimed McLean was still doing these horrific experiments and tortures. The thing that was disproven was that they had continued to be involved, not that they had never been involved. To our understand the difference in these two cases is that there is numerous possible claims that McLean may have been involved in the past but only one which claimed this from a very untrustworthy source.

There is currently no evidence to prove they were not involved. However there is also seemingly no evidence to prove Mclean Hospital were involved as well. Due to the connections in administration in that time period, it is reasonable to conclude that it is plausible that Mclean did contribute all the way back when MK-Ultra was active, just as much as it is reasonable to conclude it is plausible they did not.

Does this mean it should be treated as fact? No. But the RAMCOA survivors who immediately learn of these connections and assume the worst are having a reasonable emotional reaction when paired with what RAMCOA survivors like us have experienced. The feelings are reasonable, but the fact of the matter in many cases just seems to not be there.

By denying the plausibility you are plausibly denying the experience of victims who are still alive to this day. As such many people (us included) still feel weird about definitively saying that there is no chance this happened in the past. However we must be fully aware and acknowledge that there is not enough evidence of this being the case, therefore it is wrong from a factual point to say that they were involved.

Again, does this reflect the modern day?

Absolutely not. I would say that to our knowledge the majority of doctors at the hospital who are (especially) younger than their 50 are not involved nor should be implicated. Anyone who was a child when Mk-Ultra launched and/or concluded should be automatically removed from a list of possible perpetrators. Additionally it will only harm what we do believe could be good doctors who had no idea of these things, many people today are far removed from things like Mk-Ultra, many if not most may have had no awareness of the past allegations.

You can address the fact that worries or claims that McLean Hospital or Harvard Medical today are doing this as false, without fully denying the plausibility of a dark past. Especially when it comes to Harvard Medical.

(Side note, just because something came form another organization does not necessarily mean they did the same practices. Additionally, I would argue, given the history of government projects only those directly involved with the experimentation would be aware of what was occurring and not all workers even within the hospital).

We took it upon ourselves to look into it initially- we already knew about the Unabomber being an Mk-Ultra victim, we only recently knew he had ties to Harvard Medical. And yes, we have found a few claims that the specific hospital he was put in when tortured was McLean, but those have only been on articles that require one to sign up or buy fully access which we are not doing.

Please just try and understand why some RAMCOA survivors have reacted the way they have, do more than just look on reddit or see that one lunatic claiming McLean was continuing on Mk-Ultra in 1987. Because what many are doing is resorting to a long time form of systemic oppression against RAMCOA survivors. The default of calling all of them delusional and conspiracy theorists. It is not delusion to see something so similar to your experience and make a connect even if it is faulty, delusion is another mental health issue entirely.

Acknowledge how things can be emotional reactions, while also acknowledging the bits of truth within those reactions. We do not think that this being brought up in response to specifically the DID video is good- we think it creates fear and leads to fear mongering about hospitals and doctors. This is something that should be brought up and addressed in its own right. But the timing was poor, and the reasons behind it were filled and fueled with people who were triggered in a variety of ways and were not actually discussing it out of concern for the victims. (We are usually not big on what the motivations behind something are but when your motivations end up seeping through and possibly harming an important discussion it does become a concern.)

Trans Ramcoa

I dont want to make this a habit however, when looking for terms to reclaim, I came across a post that made me recoil in disgust. @ cincinique made a post defending the not reclaimed term Trans Ramcoa and I would like to bring this to people attention so they can block the people interacting with this post and defending this term. I would like this to be perfectly clear, if you use the term Trans-Ramcoa or similar Trans-id terms, you are:

Defending Child pornography

Romanticizing Child Prostitution

Romanticizing the torture of Children

Defending Child rapists

YOU. ARE. BORDERLINE. PEDOPHILIC.

Not in a million years will these people understand what we went through as a child, all the abuse and torture we experienced at the hands of the people who were supposed to love us. To call this a kink, to say its just you being "kinky" is you getting off to the idea of child torture. You calling this a kink is you pushing people into dangerous situations were they will be abused and tortured. What you post matters. What you do matters. Do not make your legacy online supporting child rape and child torture.

Help for those who constantly apologizing:

So, I am what I like to call a ‘serial apologizer’, I have been known to get stuck inside a ring of ‘I’m sorry’ over things that are totally unnecessary (bumping into things, making too much noise, or even simply being even close to in someone’s way, etc). I have had pretty much every reaction to this habit of mine from kind to extremely rude. Some people have found it endearing, cute or a sign that I am just that polite. While other people found it to be attention-seeking, dishonest, awkward, or just plain annoying. It took me a long time to realize that none of these explanations are really true at all. After a pretty enlightening conversation with a friend in a treatment center, I realized just why I was apologizing all the time. She pointed out that my apologizing was because I was scared to upset anyone, or even take up space. I had never realized or been told that feeling this way was abnormal and that is why I decided to post about it, in hopes of helping others with this problem. 

So here’s a list of the things I have learned since the conversation:

Constant apologizing is a reaction to feeling or having felt that: you aren’t allowed to take up space, you shouldn’t vocalize your needs, you don’t have valuable input. This tick or habit is a direct response to one or several factors: high anxiety (whether social or otherwise), trauma (particularly at the hands of people you cared about), or low self-esteem.

Constant apologizing is NOT attention-seeking, rude, or necessary to be seen as polite.

A lot of the time the apologies is a preventive measure to protect you from rejection, conflict, or awkward situations. It’s actually a defense mechanism.

A lot of common reactions received from people who don’t understand can actually continue this cycle, or make it difficult to resist continuing the cycle.

So with that basic information, I am going to move on to some reminders (Bonus: if you change you to I these double as some pretty nice affirmations)

You do not need to apologize for taking up space. 

You do not need to apologize for making small, mistakes that haven’t hurt anyone.

You do not need to apologize for existing  

You are allowed to make mistakes

You are allowed to show emotions/vulnerability.

You are not obligated to apologize for being yourself or acting human.

Now on to some tips that are helping me overcome this habit (I still struggle with this cycle but I swear these can help out.)

Use positive affirmations to raise your self-esteem and relieve anxiety. (The ones above work and I have a post of confidence-building ones on this blog)

Try (when it makes sense) to use “Thank you.” instead of “I’m sorry” 

Examples:

“Thank you for understanding,” rather than “I’m sorry for *small mistake/ lateness*

“Thank you for making me feel so welcome,” rather than “I’m sorry, you don’t have to do that.”

“Thank you for listening to me. It’s nice to feel heard.” instead of “I’m sorry for being emotional.”

Be gentle with yourself for slipping up. It’s way more beneficial to be kind to yourself rather than self punish.

If you can try to talk to people in your life you feel comfortable/ safe around about the apologizing. 

“I struggle with apologizing all the time, I’m trying to change this habit but it can hard for me. I hope you can understand”

“I’m trying not to apologize as much. Can you give me a gentle reminder/code word when I do I apologize unnecessarily?”

For people who have loved ones who struggle with this habit

 Try to respond kindly with things like:

“It’s okay, you don’t need to apologize for *cause of apology*”

“You seem anxious. Is everything okay? Did something make you uncomfortable?”

“I am not angry or annoyed with you for making a mistake or taking up space. You are allowed to make mistakes”

Have a calm, understanding conversation about the pattern

Be respectful and understanding of the cause of this pattern. This isn’t meant to be a high-maintenance, guilt trip or annoying. In fact, it’s a direct result of being made to feel that way.

I hope this post is helpful for any fellow ‘serial apologizing’ or someone who loves or cares for one.

R

People should be allowed to talk about RAMCOA. Is it fucked up? Yes. Should you be careful if you're gonna look into it? Also yes.

But the fact that most people don't even know it exists is wrong. You can't stop something from happening if you don't know it's happening in the first place.

Ello Ello, we are the Mountain cap collective, and this is our resource and talking about our system profile .

I’m not gonna go over all the  diagnosis because they are too numerous, but we will list some of the more important ones C-DID, ASD, ADHD, CPTSD,H-EDS, POTS, dyslexia and dyspraxia .

We are a RAMCOA survivor, we are not planning to talk in detail about it, but will plan to share basic information about RAMCOA and the basis of what we experienced . We are leftist, this is a safe space for all. This is not a page about blood liable and conspiracy, if you support that kind of shit, please leave the front door is wide open. We also don’t support narcissistic abuse (it’s called emotional or psychological abuse), we have low empathy ourselves because of the abuse we suffered&ASD, sooo Yeet!

Anyways, a quick get to know us!



Miloslav

They/Them

Host

🐱.

Ivan

He/Him

🌻.

Wolfy

He/They

🗡️🐈.

Lou

He/Him

⚜️.

Louis

He/They

🏞️.

Jippi

Any/All

🐈.

Honestly, that’s everybody who fronts enough so yeah!